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I play drums and electric guitar, and am thinking about starting up an Industrial band....Im probably going to start off as a one man band, and invite some friends of mine who are vocalists to participate.
Ive given up on the computer drum mixers. Im looking for a touch pad drum machine where you use real sticks on rubber pads, one that has internal recording, and has a variety of sounds to program into each pad.
Im trying to get a feel for which digital drum machines have a sound that is best for making industrial and edgy electronic music.
Ive given up on the computer drum mixers. Im looking for a touch pad drum machine where you use real sticks on rubber pads, one that has internal recording, and has a variety of sounds to program into each pad.
Im trying to get a feel for which digital drum machines have a sound that is best for making industrial and edgy electronic music.
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 4:57 PMAre you aware of a magazine called "Electronic Musician"? If not I recommend checking it out. Also a magazine called Mix Master Directory. When you get famous and move into the big house remember me and let me be your butler. : ) -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 5:30 PMwait...did i miss something? last i checked, starting an industrial band was not a good money making scheme ;) -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 5:36 PMIf you can pull it off I think it would be the best way to make money ever. "Excuse me Trent, is that a gold or a platinum card in your wallet man? Oh you have both? I see." -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 10:00 PMActually, Im a biochemist studying Naturopathic and Chinese Medicine.
The Industrial band is just for fun. Who said anything about money?
Then again, if we create something really good, why not go with it?
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 10:14 PMThat would be fine and all if he didn't come from a well off family (Reznor heaters/radiators anyone? or at least thats the story I've been tipped off on. did I get it wrong?) as he already had the gold/platinum/black card in the wallet before starting out.. That and I understand his 1st demos where shite and there was quite a bit of hand holding... ;P
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Onto drum machines however...
I kind of tend to think most industrial bands that use pad oriented drums sound teh suck since they do such a bad job at actually getting some meaningful sounds programmed... All the stock stuff sucks that come with the pads. Now Terrofakt will use lots of triggered drums/samples and they don't sound stock, but stay away from an all in one unit.. You aren't going to find a pad/drum kit that comes with the sounds you should want.
Alas if you want to stick to something drum like here is a bunch of stuff from Roland.. Sure there are other companies out there..
A Roland product line www.roland.com/V-Drums/
Full kit -- Roland TD-6SW -- www.rolandus.com/products/...tails.aspx
Something like the Roland TMC-6 would be cool to incorporate perhaps.. Maybe blend acoustic / and triggered samples.
However all you need is the TD-6 and then hook that up to something meaningful and external to the kit via MIDI.
The simple fact is that you are going to sound teh ghey if you use the sounds from the straight up electronic drum kits you may acquire..
In my humble opinion more industrial bands that use kits like this need to use alternative sources whether that goes back to software
running on a laptop or a hardware sampler. But that takes a little more effort...
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I personally am in the TR-909 / Elektron Machinedrum camp.. Throw one of those puppies through tube distortion / colored compression / EQ before hitting the computer works wonders that no all digital powernoise garbage will touch (and there is a lot of that out there).
So, do go the electronic drum kit route if you put in the time to tweak the sounds via external software/samplers which essentially doesn't get you away from a computer; you are just moving the trigger source external. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 10:36 PMSomebody was telling me that I could basically use a really low end drum pad machine, since I wont get very good sounds anyway, then run it through all my chosen effects to get the end result. I might even go with something in the 200 dollar range, or cheaper if I go used. Not even with the full drummers set up, just a flat pad set with a few extra inputs. Then Im going to invest that money into some distortion effects instead.
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 10:43 PMmmm... spl charisma... got mine used off ebay for about $300... It's nice...
yeah.. you can take that approach regarding processing stock unit sounds, but I'd still go with a sampler.. Actually this is similar to the stripped down Terrofakt show I saw in Chicago a month ago or so.. He was just triggering with fingers/hand though and probably hitting a laptop with it along with other backing tracks..
I mean running Live w/ a sampler triggered externally is awfully powerful for a one man band...
I think there is a lot of merit to hooking it up to a sampler or laptop, but price increases.. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 11:08 PMIm not professional yet. I might never be.
I think Im going low budget for the time being. Im not looking to play live sets with the drum machine. I just want to record drum samples to play guitar over. If I end up doing anything live, it will be guitar and not the drum sets.
I just really dont like the feel of mixing beats on the computer. I dont mind mixing them on a computer. Speeding them up, distorting them, layering them, and altering them is all good, but when it comes to hammering out the beat patterns, I really like doing it with my own two hands. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 1:40 AMWhen you get famous and move into the big house remember me and let me be your butler. : ) <-------I said that because it would be my dream job to work for a rich rock star as opposed to the corporate world bullshit I have to deal with everyday! : ) And I didnt know about Trents family biz. That just means he had money for equipment. Money didnt make Pretty Hate Machine & everything else he created since. Money cannot buy creativity & genius. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 1:34 PMI totally understand.
Since we are on the subject, are there any other musicians in the Bay Area who are interested in playing? -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 1:48 PMI volunteer to be the singer. : ) -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 2:15 PMSince Im not going to be doing live sets on the drums, but just pre-recording beat patterns to be altered and mixed, Im going to go for a cheap 8 pad flat single piece digital drum machine.
My next question would probably be what effects I should get. Maybe use a distortion pedal for a guitar? I wonder what that would sound like. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 3:52 PM>My next question would probably be what effects I should get. Maybe use a distortion pedal for a guitar? I wonder what that would sound like.
I'd recommend still keeping all the sound inside the computer as you will be able to tweak and start with much higher quality samples than any external pad/kit will offer; let alone samples that make sense for the music you are making.. Plus there are plenty of distortion/effects options via plugins. Maybe hook up you external pad to NI's Battery amongst lots of other software.
You aren't going to get a good sound by just distorting the output of external gear. Many things working against that.. If you had a good compressor & EQ in line with a good A/D that is one thing, but probably not there at the moment. Better to keep all the content on the computer and trigger it externally to come up with loops that you then mangle, etc.
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Re: Drum Machines?
Thu, January 4, 2007 - 5:59 PMI have some recommendations for effects to turn boring inexpensive,out of date drum sounds into coolness:
1) is the Digitech Vocal 300 it's a relatively inexpensive (and somewhat noisy but we're talking industrial music here,
aren't we) pedal put out for vocal manipulation but it has good pitch shifting, tremelo, reverb, gating and modulation effects
2) a Digitech Red Whammy pedal.............just a pitch shifter but you can make incredible drum sounds out of the radical
pitchshifting that occurs with 2 octaves up and 2 down as this baby does. It also has simple harmonization as well
and a wet and drive output. It has a very cool expression pedal built into it so you can do very wicked pitch sweeps as well
3) a BOSS OD-20.............this is the boss pedal that has acoustic modelling of all the famous distortion/overdrive/sustainer/fuzz
boxes in history (the Pro Co Rat, the Ibanez Tube Screamer, the Big Muff, the Fuzz Face and ALL of the Boss distortion pedals
that they've put out which is a lot). It also has a wicked octave fuzz feature that can be added to any sound, many different
amp overdrive simulations (fender, vox, marshall, et. al.) and it has four user programmable presets.
It's a bit pricey ($175 range) but it's just an amazing distortion device. Highly recommended instead of spending as much money on
a bunch of individual used pedals that will radically increase your noise floor.
remember, too, speaking of noise floor, that though noise is an intregal part of industrial music, too much noise in your pedals will
take away the viscerality and the punch or transients of your tracks.
All of these pedals can be found used except the OD-20 which is brand new and is so cool that I haven't seen one yet for sale used.
Ooops, I take that back, I just checked e-bay and they have one witha buy it now price of $103.
Don't even hesitate, buy it..............trust me on this one.
cgi.ebay.com/Boss-OD-20-...cmdZViewItem
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 3:42 PM>Money cannot buy creativity & genius.
In the immediate in oneself this is true, however money can rent others... And when one surrounds oneself with others who are talented a little can rub off over time.. ;P
It can buy creative people to sit in the studio next to you and work for you.. or "better yet" sit in the studio while you go out and party.. I certainly am not commenting on that last aspect for Trent, but it applies to plenty of other name brand artists.
Pretty Hate Machine Technical Credits:
Chris Vrenna -- Programming, Digital Editing, Continuity
Keith LeBlanc -- Producer, Engineer, Remixing
Doug d'Angelis -- Engineer
Flood -- Programming, Producer, Engineer
John Fryer -- Producer, Engineer
Kennan Keating -- Engineer
Trent Reznor -- Arranger, Programming, Producer, Engineer, Digital Editing, Continuity
Adrian Sherwood -- Producer, Engineer
Tony Dawsey -- Mastering
Ken Quartarone -- Engineer
Gary Talpas -- Cover Design, Liner Notes
Doug DeAngelis -- Engineer
Thats a fuck load of talented people working on the release and that was early on in the catalog of releases..
All the people listed as producers already had serious chops and most commercial success.
Flood en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark..._producer)
John Fryer www.discogs.com/artist/John+Fryer
Definitely Adrian Sherwood / Keith Le Blanc can't go unnoticed.. :)
www.obsolete.com/on-u/sherwood.html
Check out Tackhead -- www.tackhead.com/
Money can buy you the right people, and the studio, and the release, and proper distribution.
I guess the best thing to do is go back and listen to "Purest Feeling" and compare (dig around on soulseek).. Quite a bit different than PHM... :)
This is all Trent... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purest_Feeling
I mean you can see the initial ideas there, but quite a 360 between PHM and his demo in my opinion..
I'm still interested to find out the Reznor radiator/heater connection as I just heard that in passing one time, but can't find anything on the interweb.. ;P -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 4:01 PMI never heard he came from money before. I thought he said in a book that when he moved away from home to I think Cleveland he struggled to make money and had it hard just trying to make enough to eat and buy beer. And to me it doesnt really matter how many people are involved with a project if the end result is as incredible as NIN. If I could afford to pay people to collaborate or work with me to make the best recording possible I would too. I would prefer it actually. If it's not everything I would want it to be I wouldnt even want it to be released. To just be yet another mediocre piece of crap that is just product generated to appease & pacify the masses. I like Linkin Park but there are all these people that know I love music and we are always turning each other onto new stuff. Most of the stuff they present is pure bullshit as far as I'm concerned. For every Linkin Park there are 100 bands that sound just like them. There's only one Linkin Park. Period! -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 4:15 PMHmmm.
Maybe I need somebody to sit down and teach me how to use some of these computer programs through midi from my external drum machine.
I could possibly work out some kind of trade.
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 4:19 PM>I never heard he came from money before.
Yeah.. that is the unsubstantiated part I brought up.. Curious though...
>And to me it doesnt really matter how many people are involved with a project if the end result is as incredible as NIN.
I do care.. ;) As anyone with half talent with the right people behind them can create "gold". Happens all the time...
>If I could afford to pay people to collaborate or work with me to make the best recording possible I would too.
There is a trade off here though... NIN didn't stray far from the verse/chorus formula of traditional music of the time whereas the people behind him added in the musical flair. While PHM is timeless to a certain extent I think it has to do with the combination of folks involved behind the scene on that one..
Yes, one can pay people to make a good recording from production to engineering, but what is its purpose then? commercial product?
I've got somewhat twisted ideals in general though, so I'll drop out on this one.. :) -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Sun, December 10, 2006 - 5:03 PMNo one persons ideas are any better than anyone elses necessarily. Whatever works for you. I understand what youre saying and agree mostly. But then Where would Slayer be without Rick Rubin? And all those other bands without Mutt Lang. Or Quincy Jones? These are people that help make magic happen. Pharrell even. Or Todd Rundgren for that matter. They are helping bring out other peoples creative potential. If it was all them they wouldnt waste their time with other people. They would just put out their own albums. Which Todd Rundgren does. Have you heard his Liars cd from a year or two ago? It's incredible! -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Thu, December 14, 2006 - 11:19 AMReznor heating and cooling and whatever is absolutely not related to Trent Reznor, and in fact tried to sue him for using "their" name. Obviously this did not fly since it really is just a name, and just his name in fact. -
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Re: Drum Machines?
Fri, December 15, 2006 - 11:10 AMI've been a professional drummer/percussionist and drum computer programmer all of my adult life.
Here are a couple of inexpensive ways to get excellent sounds for your tracks:
1) buy a used Roland Pad 80 midi drum controller (cheap on e-bay usually) or even a set of inexpensive drum triggers
2) hook it up to a used Alesis D4 or D5 one spaced rack module (this is just a unit that has tons of sampled drum sounds
in it.
3) run those sounds through some inexpensive guitar effects pedals to fuck them up (distortions, overdrives, modulation pedals,
pitch shifters, digital delays, et. al.
4) record
or.....................use a fairly inexpensive PC computer (P4, 1000 mghz or better) and buy the program FRUITY LOOPS Producers
Edition v. 6.0 (which at $150 is one of the most inexpensive, sample based DAWs on the market place).
It is incredibly intuitive to use and has tons of sound design options that are easy to understand.
It's all grid based (though you can sample in real time through it and use midi and VST instruments as well)
so it's visually a piece of cake (think those really elegant early Roland drummachines with the grid orientation----TR 808 and TR 909)
Also, for what it's worth, I have assembled a really good DVD of hundreds of great drum sounds from the electronic world, the industrial world and the acoustic world (including real drums, real percussion, percussive sound effects and my own sound designs). I spent about 7 years combing the web; raiding friends sample CD collections, buying all the issues of
Computer Music and Future Music from the UK that always have tons of free drum samples on them and sampling my own extensive collecction of drum machines from the past: I have 20 pre-digital drum machines in my collection including the 1953 Wurlizter Side Man
which is pre-rock and roll!!!
Also, as a studio drummer and producer through the late 70's up until the present time, I also know a lot of about drum sounds, tuning, processing, etc. so I really put a lot of energy into making this collection. I made it for myself not to sell, but I've had a lot of requests from people who've heard it to sell it, so I sell just a very few copies each year of it and am not especially into hyping it.
It is organized by instrument and by types of sound, so it is very quick to audition sounds in Fruity Loops or a similar sample based
drum machine (either soft or hardware oriented)
I sell it now for $25 through PayPal (my address there is looppool(at sign)cruzio(dot sign)com )
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Re: Drum Machines?
Tue, December 19, 2006 - 10:38 PMYeah... So I was in Amsterdam kicking it with some folks after m-fest and I knew this fellow who recounted this story must have been high... Hmm.. Oh wait.. nevermind.... ;P
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